On Grammar Education

[gnomi]

In the midst of a conversation with a coworker this morning (on whether a good book exists from which one can learn punctuation rules), I had the opportunity to reflect on the fact that, for me, English grammar rules (and, thus, proper punctuation) is one of those gut-level instincts. I can look at a sentence and, for the most part, tell you what's wrong with it and how to fix it. And in the course of this conversation, I expressed just why that is true.

I had an English teacher in high school, Sharon Steiff, who seemed to have as a personal goal that we would not leave her classroom at the end of the year without a fundamental understanding of English grammar. I was lucky enough to have her for three years (grades 7, 9, and 12). Miss Steiff (as I always think of her, even though she insisted after I was no longer her student that I call her Sharon) died of leukemia in January 2004, but I'd like to think that her memory survives through the lessons that she taught that I implement on a daily basis. She taught us literature, as well, of course. We read plenty of novels and plays, discussed their importance and fundamental meanings. But we always came back to the grammar, to how the author used language.

I didn't even realize how unusual this focus on teaching grammar was until I started talking to my friends in college who would bring me papers to edit. I'd flag things that I thought should be written differently, sentences I felt should be restructured, and when I tried to explain why, my friends hadn't necessarily encountered the concepts before (such as restrictive and nonrestrictive clauses).

I've come to understand that most US schools aren't teaching grammar to the level that used to be taught. I'm not honestly sure why this path away from grammar education has been followed. Folks who learned English somewhere other than the US, did you get a strong grammar education? And folks who learned English in the US, do you feel that your grammar education was as rigorous as you'd like?

Comments

This answer will surprise you not at all

[cbpotts.livejournal.com]

My formal grammar education was practically non-existant. So much of my academic life consisted of being shunted off in a corner to read while the teacher tried to get my classmates to master the basics that there are actually huge gaps in my knowledge. I feel this lack of skills hurts me tremendously as a writer - what grasp I do have for the nicities of writing come wholly from reading.

[sdelmonte]

I can't say for sure that I had a good education on purpose in grammar. But the most difficult professor I had in college was always impressed with my grasp of.

[madfilkentist]

I learned good grammar somewhere, though I'm not sure it was primarily in school.

One reason that grammar isn't taught as well these days is political pressure. The Seattle school system had a web page last year which declared that "defining one form of English as standard" is racist. The page was pulled because of widespread outrage, but it said a lot about the kind of pressure being put on teachers.

[half-double.livejournal.com]

I had 2 grammar-obssessed teachers. My 8th grade English teacher gave us time drills ever Tuesday and Thursday. He would put a paragraph on the overhead, and we would have to write it out and then do various diagram-like things to it. Underline the subject once. Underline the predicate twice. Circles around direct objects, squares around indirect objects, triangles around objects of prepositions. Then go through and identify the part of speech of every word in the paragraph. When we were done, we yelled, "Time!" Our grades were calculated by some complex formula, to which we were never made privy, of the time-to-error ratio.

My 10th grade English teacher was fixated on grammatical rules. At the beginning of the year, he gave each student a "Flipper," a long piece of cardboard with index cards attached. Each side of each index card contained one English grammar rule. Over the course of the year, we progressed through the Flipper, one rule per week. We didn't learn the proper names for rules like you did, but we sure as shootin' knew how to identify correct and incorrect grammar and usage when we saw it.

[fadagaski.livejournal.com]

It's been my experience in the UK that English grammar isn't taught ... ever. :S When I was a kid, I got the basics like how to use apostrophes and such, but we've only occasionally had top-ups to refresh the minds on what apostrophes are for and when they should be used, usually before exams. As for ... clauses. Nope. I learnt more about tenses in A Level French than I've ever done in English.

[twitch124.livejournal.com]

I had 8 years of nuns teaching me grammar. Then I switched to a school system that expected honors 9th graders to know how to research, structure, and write 5 page essays coming into the program. Then I got kicked out of honors English mid-year.

Regular track English was better for me overall, but I'm still angry at the way that English teacher treated me.

[betra.livejournal.com]

I do recall being taught grammar, but I am not sure I actually learned anything from that class. Most of what I seem to understand about grammar comes from the fact that I was a voracious reader.

I have no idea what a dangling participle is, but I know when a sentence needs help.

[dpolicar]

It amuses me that the example in the link you provide ("The suspect in the lineup, who owns a red car, committed the crime."), while correctly using the unrestrictive clause, incorrectly uses the definite article. (Either that, or uses the word "lineup" in an idiosyncratic way.)

I never really had a formal-grammar education like what you describe. I picked up an "ear" for it by reading, and refined it later by writing and being edited, and for the most part I still don't know the technical terms for various rules.

To be honest, and at the risk of earning the derision of your flist in its entirety, I don't care much about most formal grammatical rules. The ones that stick with me are those that affect meaning; I have a strong preference for language that is clear. If the meaning is unambiguously understandable, I don't worry much about how well it conforms to grammatical norms. That said, I acknowledge that proper grammar is like proper clothing; it's best to learn the rules before you violate them.

[(Anonymous)]

Fortunately, grammar agrees with you and would like to help you make language clear and unambiguous.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

I don't care much about most formal grammatical rules.

But, see, you have a gut instinct for the grammar you use regularly. You can easily see the differences among:

-- Dip your bread or roll in your soup
-- Dip your bread, or roll, in your soup
-- Dip your bread, or roll in your soup

(sentence credit to Theodore Bernstein (http://www.amazon.com/Careful-Writer-Theodore-M-Bernstein/dp/0684826321/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9340193-0928961?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179502721&sr=1-1), whose book Lori R. has on her shelf)

You've stated a preference for language that is clear, which I completely agree with. The problem arises, in my view, when people don't understand why there's a problem with the third example above.

[dpolicar]

(nods) well, the third example above is clear, though unlikely.
That said... does any native speaker actually not understand the problem with that example?

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

That said... does any native speaker actually not understand the problem with that example?

Intellectually, I'd say no. But from what I've seen of written examples (not this exact one, but equally egregious), I'd have to say not necessarily.

[(Anonymous)]

I had something that vaguely resembled grammar education. We had grammar units in english classes. I loathed it. It sucked so much. Diagramming sentences still seems like possibly the most pointless thing I've ever done with my time.

I might have just had really lousy grammar teachers...

I do not think you can teach grammar (in a primary language) like that. Read enough relatively quality writing, and you'll have all the grammar you need. Then you can go study the formalities. If you don't already have an ear, formally studying grammar seems pretty useless.

[ephemera.livejournal.com]

(UK education) I had no formal grammar teaching, and to this day I regard the phrase 'diagram a sentence' with deep distrust, but right through school teachers - and not just English teachers - would correct our language usage in essays. Between that, and reading voraciously, I think I have a fairly good grasp of things. I freely admit, though, that I'm doing it all by ear, and don't know the names of the rules.

[willa-writes.livejournal.com]

I am afraid of grammar. Positively phobic.

Long story short: a vicious fourth-grade teacher took my inability to diagram a sentence as a grounds for taunting and mockery (she'd probably be fired for harassment these days).

Longer section of babbling: I am still unable to diagram a sentence or identify more than adverbs, adjectives, nouns and verbs. I wouldn't know a clause or a dangling participle from a hole in the wall, let alone anything else.

The only grammar I know comes from reading. I began reading when I was less than two years old (apparently it's called "spontaneous reading") and had graduated to reading the KJV by age 4.

I scored a "5" on my high school English AP exam.

I am still bloody terrified of diagramming sentences.

[caryabend.livejournal.com]

I received a fair amount of grammar instruction between 4th and 9th grades. I no longer remember all the formal names for the rules, but I still know how to use most of them. Of course, a pathological need for clarity in communication - both written and spoken - probably helps.

[chaos-wrangler.livejournal.com]

I know at least some of my teachers in school tried to teach grammar, but most of what I actually learned (and remember, and use) comes from my mother, who is an editor. For this reason I don't know the name of every rule, but my supervisor (an English teacher) routinely asks me to proofread for her, and today she sent another English teacher to me for proofreading before looking at his writing herself.

Some of what I know about the names for parts of speech, tenses, etc. comes from formally learning other languages (especially French in high school) and from taking/teaching however many linguistics classes.

[red-tanya.livejournal.com]

I attended school in the U.S. and didn't have a teacher like Miss Steiff. I wish I had.

I learned grammar by reading textbooks and lots of novels; we didn't really discuss it in class. : \

P.S. - good timing

[chaos-wrangler.livejournal.com]

Amusingly enough, G just introduced me to "Grammar Rock" from the "School House Rock" collection - the tape didn't work in his VCR, but we recently brought mine home from my parents' and... So now I've got bits and pieces of songs about adjectives and adverbs running through my head. I'm not sure songs like these would have helped me as a kid, since I had no problems learning grammar in school and/or at home, but I can see where they might have made a difference for some people.

[vettecat.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that you had that experience. I consider my "ear" for grammar to be either hard-wired from birth or developed through years of intensive reading. But I don't consider that I got anything useful out of Miss S.'s class. The main thing I remember about her was that she couldn't spell (which I always considered odd in an English teacher), and always carried a "Misspeller's Dictionary."

But we were the first class she taught when she started at the school... maybe she improved in later years.

[lisafeld.livejournal.com]

Most of my grammar instruction in school was kind of mneh, with the exception of my fifth grade teacher who told me to get a copy of Strunk and White. I learned from my Mom, who was a writer and editor, and soaked up a lot from my voracious reading. Most of what I know of grammar comes from a life where I read more than I talked to people, the written word essentially acting as my first language. So my commas are not always what they should be and I've been known to split infinitives, but my sentences are clear.

I tend to focus more on flow and proper word choice than on by-the-book grammar, but that's because I can get away with it. If I were teaching people who were NOT voracious readers with bookshelves covering all the walls at home, I'd drill them on grammar and give them lots of examples of how different choices change meaning, and explain that it's easier to get people to listen to you and trust that you know what you're talking about if your writing is clear.

[michelel72.livejournal.com]

I honestly can't say how good or bad my instruction in grammar/usage/spelling/punctuation (GUSP for short here) was. I remember that we had these dusty old books we had to work through when I was in elementary school, and we had a whole checklist of concepts the state required us to master, and we diagrammed sentences probably every year of elementary school, but I attended two different elementaries and several different "gifted" programs. I was emphatically given the impression that everything, including English, had "right" and "wrong" elements. I was determined to prove that I could get everything right or that I could be the best at anything school-related, and rules systems generally click for me. These elements certainly helped me; to this day I use a system similar to sentence diagrams to try to explain parallel sentence structure to coworkers. (The writing in some of my company's federally required procedures or communications with customers is enough to make a strong language-lover cry.)

But the content also interested me [she continued, breaking the grammar-school law against starting sentences with conjunctions]. I chose to read columns about word derivations and modern language usage. I joined or associated with groups that cared about language. When I encountered gaps in my knowlege, such as the concepts of dangling modifiers or restrictive/non-restrictive clauses, I set about learning them. For them what just don't care, GUSP are probably more challenging and recognizing errors probably isn't the near instinct it is for me and many here.