A Chanukah-Related Thought Question

[gnomi]

This Friday night, like last Friday night, is a Shabbat Chanukah. This means that we light Chanukah candles before our regular Shabbat candles. Shabbat candles are traditionally lit 18 minutes before sunset (lest we come to accidentally light the candles *on* Shabbat, we give ourselves an 18-minute buffer. Many of us end up using these 18 minutes to finish whatever last-minute Shabbat stuff needs to get done (lcmlc has made a whole chicken dinner in the eighteen; I have said in the past that the existence of the Eighteen Minutes is proof that Hashem loves us)), but Chanukah candles are supposed to be lit at nightfall (actual dark, not sunset), and burn for half an hour (some say 20 minutes). But we can't light candles once Shabbat has started, so we light the Chanukah candles before we light Shabbat candles. This does not change the fact that we have to have Chanukah lights burning at least half an hour into the night.

The solution, therefore, is that we use extra-long Chanukah candles that will burn from candle lighting 18 minutes before sunset until a half hour after it gets actually dark (so this week from 3:54 until approximately 5:30).

But what if you're going out to shul or (if you're skipping shul) to someone's home for dinner? You are supposed to light where you're going to sleep. Lighting Chanukah candles and then leaving home is not particularly safe (and is something I have refused to do since Ross and Charlie's Very Special Chanukah Fire of 1990). One could light the shorter candles, knowing they'll go out before the requisite amount of time. Or one could light at the location where one is going to be eating dinner (or at shul), even though they know they aren't going to be sleeping there. But does that lighting then fulfil the mitzvah? Or does pikuach nefesh (literally, "saving a life," something done to prevent death or serious injury) trump here?

Comments

[thudthwacker.livejournal.com]

I have no wisdom to impart, but I wanted to mention that I managed to misread "pikuach" as "pikachu" the first time through your post, and while I have no idea what "pikachu nefesh" might mean, I can't seem to stop laughing about it.

(It's sort of a pity that "gotta catch 'em all" would be more appropriate to some of the more evangelical sects of Christianity that it would be to Judaism.)

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

"Pikachu nefesh" means "the soul of the Pokemon," which is clearly what the Pokeballs actually capture, since you can't actually fit the material body of the pokemon in there.

[crwilley.livejournal.com]

...I'm glad that wasn't just me.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

It's Channukah. If you were lighting candles for an actual chag, that'd be one thing. But Channukah is just here because it's kinda fun. If the Channukah candles don't burn half an hour after dark, or even if you skip lighting them entirely, I really don't think it makes a big difference. I mean, it's not a Torah-mitzvah -- it's Rabbinic -- and it's Rabbinic because the Rabbis wanted to de-emphasize the holiday.

I'd say that pikuach nefesh wins hands-down. I mean, if it's pikuach nefesh vs Shabbat, pikuach nefesh wins. For Channukah? I think you've got a far, far lower burden of proof.

I'm trying to think of a mitzvah that is as unimportant as lighting Channukah candles, while still remaining a mitzvah. I mean, I think of this on about the same level of importance as kitnyot. . . .

[llennhoff.livejournal.com]

I strongly disagree. One is required to seek charity if necessary in order to be able to light Chanukah candles. Shabbat candlelighting itself is a rabbinic mitzvah. Chazal may have wanted to emphasize the miracle of the oil over the military victory, but that should place greater emphasis on lighting the chanukiyah, not less.

If you don't want to light, there are a number of solutions. First of all, if you live in a high rise you are probably not obligated to light if you live over the third story or so. Secondly, you could leave home prior to the time when you are able to light candles - see a rav for what you do then.

I'm personally willing to leave a chanukiah burning in an unlit house, in spite of having my own friends who have had a house fire from Shabbat candles. You could place the Chanukiya in the sink or some other place where even if it topples there is nothing flammable around. You could use tea lights instead of candles, which are unlikely to topple unless you have an earthquake, in which case you have other problems.

I really have a hard time saying that leaving lit candles is an issue of pikuach nefesh. I haven't researched the odds, but I suspect that if you hold by that you also shouldn't ski, and I'm not sure what other 'high risk' activities you might not be able to do, since protecting your life and health is a mitzvah.

YMMV of course. Just giving my perspective.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

But if you leave them in a sink, then they're not visible from the street, which seems to defeat the purpose . . .

[aunt-becca.livejournal.com]

Richie and I have lit in our friend's home when invited out for Shabbat dinner. And they're hard-core Chassidish, so you know it's kosher to do :) But what I've also done is light the menorah either in the sink, or in a pan that has an inch of water. Since we don't have the ability to put a menorah in a window (we have this thing aboyut burning down our condo building), we light in the kitchen anyway.

[sdelmonte]

My mother had the same concern last week. She asked my rabbi, and he said that she had to light at home and not at where she was eating. But she then lit a candle the night before, saw how long it was when the minimum amount of time had passed, and trimmed her candle for the actual mitzvah to the right length. She lit at 4:05 pm and arrived at dinner by 6 pm.

[gingicat]

Well, I'm hardly a posek, but these days I tend to go with "light when the children can see them."

[farwing.livejournal.com]

I must always buy extra-long Chanukah candles because mine always take at least an hour to burn down. ??

Um...if I really really need to go out once I have lit the candles I put the whole channukiah in the sink. Might not be the most...respectful thing to do but it's hard to set fire to a kitchen sink. *shrug* I don't know if this is any help since I don't know the rules.

[shsilver.livejournal.com]

I have a different Channukah-related thought question, if I may piggy back it here...

If you are lighting an oil chanukiah, should it have a ninth flame on it? If it is oil, you couldn't use such a shammas to light the other candles, so it would seem extraneous, but a chanukiah with just the eight branches would look a little silly.

[ladymondegreen.livejournal.com]

The oil menorah we had (which could also take shabbat candles for Friday nights) had a spot for a regular Channukiah-sized shamash.

[elul-3.livejournal.com]

You still need a shamash because otherwise you might use the light from the other wicks (the chanukah lights) to read by or something. But if there is a shamash you can attribute any useful light to it.

We use oil, and what we do is light the shamash first, say the brachot, then use an unlit match to transfer the flame from the shamash to the other wicks.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

The purpose of the shammish is not to light the others. You don't need to light from the shammish at all, in fact. The purpse of the shammash is to have that one be useful light, so the lights from all the other ones can be simply for enjoyment and nothing else.

[stormsdotter.livejournal.com]

I think that a compromise could be made if one was lighting Channukah candles before going to bed. I suggest getting a big glass or metal bowl, such as a large mixing bowl, and placing the menorah in that before lighting the candles. That way, if the candles knock over or something drops into the flame, the bowl will prevent the fire from spreading.

This should never be done if you live in an area with earthquakes.

[autotruezone.livejournal.com]

Clearly, one should consult one's own posek before putting anything into practice.

That said, the Talmud says that the basic mitzvah is to light a single candle each night for the entire household. An enhancement of the mitzvah is for each member of the household to light one candle each night, and a further enhancement (which has become the common practice), is to light one candle on the first night, two on the second, etc. The books on Jewish law that I've read all quote this, either directly or indirectly. So I would suggest that you could take a standard shabbos candle, cut it in half, and light the half as your one candle for the whole household. My experience is that it will burn long enough to fulfill the mitzvah, and it has a low enough center of gravity to make toppling unlikely. But double-check with your posek.

[530nm330hz.livejournal.com]

That's what I was going to suggest. And you shouldn't need a shamash, since you have nerot shabbat lehishtamesh orotan.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Question -- could one light a standard-candles-full Chanukiah and then light one tea light that one designates as the candle for actual Chanukah mitzvah? Or is that over bal tosif?

[530nm330hz.livejournal.com]

Personally, I wouldn't. If I were intending to fulfill my halachic obligation with a tea light, that's all I'd light. (Or maybe I'd light eight tea lights on a cookie sheet.) I'm not sure if it's actually over bal tosif to light eight of one and one of the other (or even seven plus one) but it goes outside my comfort zone, especially since the grouping of eight (if one has eight) should be a visible grouping.

Perhaps you can ask your hosts if you can light one of the lights on their chanukiyah if you're going to be there before Shabbat starts, and chip in a penny for oil, to cover the feeling of tradition.

Going further, though, if you do decide to light the tea light al pi halacha as well as a full chanukiyah, I think it would be more proper to light the tea light first, just as we always start with the new candle which is the ikar shel mitzvah.

ObDisclaimer: I have yet to let my rabbi talk me into applying to a semicha program. :-)

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Similarly, a single tea light could serve this purpose, no?

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer: there's a reason I'm not Orthodox, and a lot of it has to do with questions like this.

That said, I know too many people who have died or lost loved ones in fires caused by candles left burning. I definitely consider it a matter of pikkuach nefesh. I'd say light the shorter candles before you go out, and don't worry about them going out earlier than they should.

[llennhoff.livejournal.com]

One reason for the mitzvot is to promote mindfulness so that you aren't just living your life in the moment, but instead aware of your place in the tapestry of the Jewish people and the implementation of the halacha. People who light candles in an unsafe way in order to fulfill the mitzvah are not sufficiently mindful. If you are going to take the effort to come up with an alternative, it isn't much more work to come up with an alternative that fulfills the halacha as well as safety.

[llennhoff.livejournal.com]

Orthodox rabbis are also concerned.

[cathshaffer.livejournal.com]

I am so lost. When do I get to eat the potato pancakes?

[anahcrow.livejournal.com]

I agree with the comments regarding setting candles in the sink, a cauldron of sand, a metal bucket, a large roasting pan... if it's not too sacrilegious, you could place everything in the bathtub or shower stall, which is what I have done with candle-burning rites that have lasted over times when I could not be there to observe. I have found that kitchen and bathroom are quite safe, bathroom moreso if you need to close the door against pets.

The question of what does or does not need to be done specifically is well beyond me, though. :)

[cellio]

I have a low, stable chanukiyah that I'm pretty confident won't set the house on fire, so I'm willing to leave candles burning. But if I didn't or weren't, I would put the chanikiyah in a pan of water (not the sink; I want it to be visible from the street) or use tea lights. If the pan were too wide for the windowsill I would put it on the dining-room table (chazal say you can use the table in time of danger; they don't specify the danger).

(I'm fortunate to have a sill in the dining room that's about a foot deep.)