[Flying My Frumkeit] More Truths About Me

[gnomi]

-- Even though I've covered my hair for over 10 years now, I have a category of people who get to see my hair who do not fall into the "family" category. This category includes men who have seen me in my pajamas, because my theory is that it's silly to be willing to be in PJs around someone and not let them see my hair.

-- I'm never sure, when I go to the doctor, if I should remove my hat or not. I've pondered this in this space before. And does it make a difference if my dentist's office is all women? I mean, yeah, I cover my hair around women, too, but if it's just me and a bunch of women, I've been known to remove my hat.

-- I'm not shomeret negiah. I'll greet people with hugs, and I frequently do. However, I don't extend my hand for a handshake in most situations unless the other party does first. Yeah, I know, that's kind of contradictory. There are friends who start to greet me with a hug who then hold back, thinking I'd be uncomfortable with it. More than once I've gotten into odd dances that are essentially the "is that a hug? Did I misunderstand? Wait... now what are they doing?" twostep. In general, if the person is a close enough friend that *they'd* want to greet *me* with a hug, I'll hug back.

Comments

[530nm330hz.livejournal.com]

Re: hugs. Yeah, it's tough being in a social space where people are skittish about offending someone by making normal physical contact gestures. It was nice at the puzzle hunt when two female friends-online gave me hugs without overthinking it.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Exactly! In many of my social circles, a hug is a standard greeting. And I don't want people to feel I'm standoffish, that I won't accept the standard greeting, just because of how I dress.

[madknits.livejournal.com]

A gentleman never offers to shake hands with a lady. She must offer first, and if she does not, then no hand shake should take place.

Between ladies (and notice I'm not saying women, or even wymyn), the older has the perogative of offering to shake hands.

If your doctor has seen you in your all together, does it matter so much if he sees your hair? And this is asked out of ignorance, not snarkiness.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

If your doctor has seen you in your all together, does it matter so much if he sees your hair?

This is my general standpoint. I tend to take my hat off if I'm taking off all (or even most) of my clothing. But I know there are women who believe that covering one's hair is still important while wearing those flimsy johnnies. I've seen two different reasons given -- the doctor's job involves seeing your body, but his job does not afford him the intimacy of seeing your hair; or you are surrendering so much of your modesty for health reasons, but this is one aspect of modesty that you can still hold on to.

[madknits.livejournal.com]

OK. If that works for you, who am I to gainsay it? I never wear the johnnies they give you for a physical, I just strip down to my shorts. I figure s/he's going to see everything anyway, and as long as the room is warm enough, I'm OK. I did get some wiseass comments about one of my tattoos from my nurse practitioner once, but I liked her a lot, and it was a good joke and set me at ease.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

I tend to go for the johnnies because they afford me a bit of modesty while I'm *talking* to the doctor before s/he does anything (me, I'd rather have the talking parts happen *before* they make me undress, but that's me). Also, there's the whole ingrained societal "it's fine for men to go around topless, but women cannot" thing that the US has going on that makes me feel much more at ease covered than uncovered.

It's more a question for me when it comes to things like the dentist, where I'm not disrobing but, where applicable, the brim of my hat could potentially be in the dentist's/hygenist's way. When I *remember*, I wear berets on those days rather than my brimmed hats. But I don't always remember.

[aunt-becca.livejournal.com]

I was recently having a procedure, and to my initial dismay, a male physician was performing it. my beret slid down in the midst of all this, and my first reaction was to quickly shove it back on my head. then I realized a- he's not looking at my head b-he's being so intrusive right now anyway, my hair is the least of my problems. I don't get so worried about it anymore. Now I just worry abour male physicians.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

When I had a medical procedure last summer, they made me take off my hat, but then they gave me one of those lovely showercap-looking things, so I figured it was a wash. The doctor who performed the procedure is male (he was covering for my on-vacation female doctor), but I didn't feel like I was having any tznius issues from my hair being not-completely-covered or whatever.

[aunt-becca.livejournal.com]

I also wore a shower cap! It's definitely a look :)

[tygerseye.livejournal.com]

Both of my doctors get the talking out of the way before they have me undress. However, sometimes they step out of the room to let me undress and don't come back for half an hour... I'm not sure what's better. ;-)

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I hate when "I'll give you a minute to get undressed" turns into "I'll give you time to get undressed, finish a couple of rows on your knitting, and make you think you've been abandoned."

[kuroshii.livejournal.com]

whenever we finally meet in person (and yes, that's a WHEN not an IF, by golly!) i intend to greet you with a hug.

consider yourself warned. ;)

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Yay! :-)

(I love hugs. I truly do.)

[tygerseye.livejournal.com]

I have seen your hair. And your PJ's. And your bear. ;-)

*gives you a hug first*

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

::hugs back::

And it's only the special folks who get to meet my bear. Though many people seem to get to meet the lion.

[mabfan.livejournal.com]

Though many people seem to get to meet the lion.

Nardo chomp!

[jesshartley.livejournal.com]

As someone who's totally uneducated in Jewish tradition, I'd love to know, as you're talking about these things, what they mean, why the traditions are in place, etc.

For example, hats, covering hair... I could pick up that it was a modesty issue, etc. but I don't know what shomeret negiah means or why people would not hug you?

(I hug everyone and didn't know there was a religious prohibition about it... I hope I haven't offended in inadvertently.)

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Sorry... I should've explained more.

Shomeret negiah means a woman who observes the Jewish laws that relate to touching. The simplest explanation of these laws is that they govern what qualifies as "touching in a familiar manner" and proscribe against this sort of touch between people (specifically, between a man and a woman) who are not married to each other.

Fear not; I've never been offended by a hug. In fact, since I do not observe the strict interpretation of these laws, I am very happy to greet people -- male and female -- with a hug.

(for future reference, I've got a glossary (http://gnomi.livejournal.com/410282.html) of terms I'm likely to use in this discussion.)

[chaos-wrangler.livejournal.com]

There's also shomer negiah - a man who observes the Jewish laws that relate to touching. One shomer negiah friend of ours who has a bunch of female friends often receives a group no-touching hug with us surrounding him just far enough out not to touch him. *g*

[byrne.livejournal.com]

Dude. Put me on the hug list. Also the 'will glomp if not told to behave' list.

:D

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

::snerk:: I love being glomped by you. :-)

[eal.livejournal.com]

You should have seen P doing research before he met y'all for the first time. He was terrified he was going to offend and was trying, desperately, to figure out what he could and could not do.

I pretty much said, she'll tell you if you overstep and she'll hardly get offended that your southern self doesn't know. So relax.

He's still pleased that he did "all right."

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't get offended easily. And he did just fine.

[lisafeld.livejournal.com]

I always find the johnnies ridiculous. I wear them in case my nudity makes the doctor uncomfortable, but I'd rather the clear context of "Yeah, I'm looking at your body but I don't care," instead of the mixed message of "You kinda need to be covered but I'm going to give you a totally inadequate means of doing so."

The hug/handshake dance is always weird! Especially when you throw modesty issues into the hopper; I'm always worried that I've offended someone by doing too much or too little.

On a fannish tangent, I find hand-kissing off-puttingly intimate. If I don't know someone well enough for them to kiss my cheek, I don't want their lips on any other part of me.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Yeah, hand kissing is always weird to me, though I have friends who *always* greet me that way.

And I often just let the other person lead. For instance, I'll shake any hand offered to me, I'll return a greeting hug, etc. There are people I know I can/should hug, and I'll initiate those.

[gingicat]

I tend to assume that it's okay to hug frum members of the same sex but not frum members of the opposite sex, unless told otherwise.

(When Joshua and I saw the Bakers at Arisia, I hugged Debbie and Joshua, being a child, hugged both. *grin*)

I've long since decided that going to the OB/GYN means modesty is out the window... but my OB/GYN having a frum male medical student working with him really freaked me, especially when he was teaching the student to do exams.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

All of that makes sense.

I've never had a frum male doctor, so I haven't had that be an issue, but I could see how it would be awkward. Kind of like talking to my rabbi in person about female health issues... (though by e-mail I have no problems).

[chaos-wrangler.livejournal.com]

-- I'm not shomeret negiah. I'll greet people with hugs, and I frequently do.

This sounds about right for me too, with one extra factor: I enjoy physical contact with some people and not with others, based on personality and closeness of our relationship rather than gender. I'll also tolerate hugs or kisses more or less depending on what I'm expecting in different social situations (e.g. hugs from strangers are more acceptable at conventions, kisses on one or both cheeks are more acceptable in mundane/extended-family gatherings).

However, I don't extend my hand for a handshake in most situations unless the other party does first.

This makes perfect sense to me, especially cross-gender, since you can't always tell by looking if someone is or isn't shomer negiah or is otherwise (not) comfortable shaking hands.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

since you can't always tell by looking if someone is or isn't shomer negiah or is otherwise (not) comfortable shaking hands.

Exactly. So I just find it easier not to initiate.